Calling out CRO

[Philip Scott]

Just out of interest......

Found this whilst looking for something else. How valid is this info? It somewhat contrasts what I believed to date..

http://www.cavinguk.co.uk/info/rescue.html

[Ian A]

It’s nothing like the protocol I understand.

This is what I do;

Leave a note with a responsible person (I use my wife) noting;

1) Cave/Mine location (and name, Grid Ref if known)
2) Location of where my car will be parked (and the Reg number)
3) Expected time out
4) Number of people in the party identifying  minors or inexperienced cavers

I include an instruction to wait for one hour to pass beyond the call out time (to allow for delays)

I include an instruction to ring 999 and ask for Police then cave rescue.


Cave Rescue will need to know where to go and how many they are looking for. They will first look for the car (if the car there they know you are still in the system).


If you are in a cave/mine with a party and there is an incident it is protocol for two people to leave (but the injured person should not be left alone which is where the preferred number of 4 comes from).  Once out, you need to decide how quickly you can mobilise a rescue based on what you know. You can ring a member of your own club if you have their details and you believe that CRO will spring into action. If in doubt, ring 999, then ask for cave rescue (don’t delay).


There are many instances where less than  4 are in a party to leaving a note (above) is important.

I am very reserved about first aid training. “Normal” first aid is inadequate and can be dangerous especially to someone who has been hung up in ropes for a long time. A “Qualified” first aider may be prosecuted for bad practice but a normal “bod” would not be.

Just my thoughts ….

Ian

[Philip Scott]

Thank you Ian.

Hopefully we will never be in that position, but...

Yes, I did rather feel that this is another self appointed expert. So many out there, and quite dangerous to those who don't know any better than to believe them!

I await further comments....

[Iestyn Rhys Pritchard]

"You should only dial 999 or 120 if you do not know the number for the local manned police station. With mobile phones, they put you through to the emergency room operated by the mobile phone company, and frequently, these are not even located in the same country as you."

That's complete nonsense. Besides, if you ask for cave rescue, you're automatically connected to your nearest Police control room, it's the same drill with MRT.

Dialling your local police station is pointless, because they would have to relay all information you give them to their control room which you could have contacted yourself through 999.

Edit: I also assume when they say "dial 999 or 120", they actually mean 112?

[Iestyn Rhys Pritchard]

I also agree with Ian on the first aid thing, as will anyone who's done a trauma course or CRO/MRT CasCare course.

"Remember, of course, that most cavers do not cave with triangular bandages"
Is this really true?! I carry enough medical gear to deal with a small train crash when I'm underground!

[Rostam]

Just to clarify - you phone 999 ask for the police and then ask for cave rescue.

I disagree about the first aid though. Learning CPR could save someone's life - I personally know 2 cavers who've used it, one successfully. The likelihood of a 'young' fit person drowning and the difference of someone performing CPR immediately should make the case for it.

Also applying pressure to bleeding wounds and dressing appropriately can save people's limbs, especially in dangerous places like slate mines.

Also with regard to suspension trauma - you should follow the evidence compiled by a consultant anaesthetist for Edale MR and DCRO - broadly speaking: get them out of the harness asap - do not leave it on to keep from systemic shock - that is for crush injuries only, another area where some knowledge would come in handy.

A little bit of knowledge can be a bad thing but if you get training and follow it, it is highly unlikely that you can be prosecuted for it. Especially considering suspension trauma. Plus you might just save a mate's life.

Do not act on the advice above - it does not substitute for first aid training.

Hope that sort of helps!

[Joel Colk]

Ross is spot on with the callout procedure, just remember to be ready to provide basic information about the lost/injured party.

I agree with the first aid comments, I think that anyone could and should benefit from a first aid certificate. Remember, first to aid! It might be a while before cave rescue and a Cascarer/doctor/paramedic can get to an injured party.

I have to be cautious about what I say, being a member of two cave rescue organisations. My comments to not nescseraly represent the views of the teams.

[Ian A]

Ross,

I agree in "principle" that learning first aid is a good thing.

There are additional factors ....

A lot of us "haven't" learned first aid and most of "us" won't consider it a pre-requisite to do so.

CPR - yes, I get that. Apply pressure, yes I get that ...

First aid courses (and the certificates that come with them) teach you to place people in "recovery positions" - one of those positions can kill someone who has been hung up on ropes so I stand by my reservation about "normal" first aid training.

Also, please don't forget we live in a litigious society ....

I know your vocation and respect your advice and opinion  

Ian

[Joel Colk]

Not answering for Ross, but a outdoor first aid certificate teaches the scenarios you just mentioned Ian. I was taught to treat suspension trauma as a crush injury.

This changes on which doctors are arguing in the room around you and which CRO teams advice you are acting on.

I think sometimes doing nothing can be seen just as bad as doing something the wrong way. I would be hesitant to treat a casualty if I was unsure and would look to others for guidance.

[Ian A]

Stop drinking Italian wine lol

I said .... "Normal" first aid courses - I have no issue with "dedicated" first aid courses (apart from the fact I don't want to be prosecuted).


The "law" recognises "qualifications" and does not recognise "experience" per se.

Who would you rather cave with;

1) A "fresher" newly qualified leader
2) A non-qualified 40 years experience caver

.... Just drawing parallels ....  Drink less wine :p

Ian

[Joel Colk]

No wine tonight, driving early

To an extent, I agree with you. I'm not a massive fan of the mine and cave leader scheme in a recreational perspective as an example.

There would have been no way I would have done the outdoor first aid and advanced casualty care certificates if I wasn't a member of CRO, so again, partially agree.

Speaking as just a caver - I would prefer to have the knowledge to save someone's life rather than to wish that I had done more at the time. Worrying about being used wouldn't really come into it.

I do see where you are coming from though, even though I haven't had wine

[Ian A]

You are still talking about dedicated first aid (which I have not opposed) and not addressed the issue of liability ....

Are you sure you aren't drinking Italian wine ?

 :dry:

Ian

[Joel Colk]

Ok, first aid at work certificate for example.

You draw from your knowledge of that to treat a casualty, you inadvently kill them.

You acted in a reasonable manor to the best of your knowledge, but you could be liable.

I'm not convinced. It's possible, although not 100%

[Ian A]

Sorry, bad example ....

Court case law;

H&S director failed to note that an employee in a factory had sneaked his 9 year old son into work (son was ill) and told him to lay low in the canteen. Numerous other workers were "in on it". 9 Year old son gets bored and wanders onto the factory floor where he gets killed by a forklift truck driver.

All proper H&S rules have been followed and the 9 year old was concealed from the company. All employees fully trained and certificated.

HSE prosecute over the death and the court find that the presence of the child was concealed from the HSE director (who was only an employee himself).They find him "not guilty".

The CPS appeal and the appeal court state that it was the duty of the H&S director to know that the child was there and he was sentenced to 8 years.

That destroyed his life (he had a family, mortgage etc,) and it is now (and had been for two years) a case precedent).

So, acting in a reasonable manner is no defence - sorry.

Stop drinking Italian wine lol

:p

Ian

[Iestyn Rhys Pritchard]

You're never going to be prosecuted for doing first aid wrong. There's a thing called "the good samaritan law" which protects have a go heroes. provided you act, in what you believe to be, the casualties best interest.

The only people who can be held liable for medical negligence are professionally qualified health care providers. I.e Doctors, Paramedics, nurses etc.

I personally think even outdoor specific first aid courses are a load of sh*t. A couple of months ago there was a first aid course on at work for new staff, I wasn't on it, but happened to be working nearby when they did their scenarios. In the scenario, two people had a clash of heads and both were unresponsive. The "trainer" instructed the guys on the course to put both casualties in the recovery position, with absolutely no consideration given to the mechanism of injury or possibility of cervical spine injury. I realize this is only one trainer on one course, but there's no way it's an isolated thing.

So, if this was a real incident, and one of those casualties had a c-spine injury, the first aiders actions could have resulted in paralysis or even the casualties death, despite following the training they had been given.

My opinion is, unless you're medical training is being provided by a Paramedic, Doctor or other HCP it ain't worth jack.