Thursday 9th August - suggestions

[John Nicholson]

It seems that this is now the official trip notice.

I have suggested two trips in Alyn Valley...

TRIP ONE  -  Sledgehammer trip to Poachers Cave - lead by Ian. Newbie Gareth may also join.

A short electron ladder at entry leads to a muddy crawl opening up into a long river filled passageway.  You will get wet and muddy, but otherwise quite an easy cave.

TRIP TWO  -  Rhyd Alyn, the fairy grotto, the bird's nest and the deep hole.  We will need an experienced leader - may be two.  Mike will lead and bring a key, and Tim may also join us fresh from the North Sea.

A short ladder drops into a water filled adit may be over boots. The adit is small but aminly walkable, and twists about beautifully, leading to a multi ladder climb within a narrow crack or loade, eventually connecting to the Milwr Tunel.  Will we get that far?

Meeting Place:  Cilcain Bridge carpark  6.30 pm

I can drive the Rhyd Alun group nearer to the location in one vehicle.

Refreshments afterwards at the White Horse, Cilcain. (Mike will go to the Brit).

[Tim Watts]

"IF" I'm back in time (I'm due to land back at Manchester at about 4:30pm so i should be fine) I can offer to be one leader for Rhyd Alyn, I suggest however you definitely have someone else lined up in case I don't get back in time due to weather delays etc.

Remember that they need to be a NWCC Rhyd Alyn leader and keyholder. So thats basically either Me or Mike i think. (plus i've misplaced my key at home somewhere so we'd definitely need Mikes key in any rate.

No need for this to be private so i'll move it across to public unless anyone complains?

White Horse definitely gets my vote :-) Gasping for a pint after two weeks out here! :-) :-) :-)

[Ian A]

[quote="TimWatts" post=8315]

Remember that they need to be a NWCC Rhyd Alyn leader and keyholder. So thats basically either Me or Mike i think. [/quote]

Yes it is .... I declined as I found the attached terms and conditions punitive and unacceptable.

In any event, it seems I am destined to be on another trip  :ohmy:  :ohmy:  :ohmy:

Ian

[John Nicholson]

Tim, great for us if you are back in time - but don't your family want to see you after weeks away?

Ian, don't you also have a key to Rhyd Alun - after all, it was you who took me down there previously.  Is there a copy available of their 'Terms and conditions'?

Ian, I assumed from previous communications that you were personally involved in forstering the enthusiasm of the Sledgehammer group.

[Tim Watts]

Mike Leahy, Me and MarC are the only three UCET members with keys/leaders according to the last list sent out by NWCC. Mike was also with you last time John.

Theres not a T&C as such - but this is the form thats filled in each trip and returned to NWCC (as well as the log book) which does have the do's/don'ts.

[Ian A]

John,

I don't have a key and I didn't let you in nor did I lead the group - I have forgotten who else was present but I seem to recall several members went much further than we did and much faster and had another agenda (can't remember what it was).


Tim,

Before the key was released to you, when you sent your £10 there should have been an agreement you needed to sign and return. The one I had included clauses that I could not photogragh or video and I must not allow other people to photograph or video. I assume you got the same ?



Ian

[Tim Watts]

yer, page 1 of the doc i attached above is the leadership agreement with all the conditions etc.

[John Nicholson]

At a quick scan, the attached document did not seem overly onerous, but the attitude was autocratic and in my view is written in the wrong style to fellow cave and mine explorers.  I hope we never write documents in that format.

Yes, others did scamper down to MT to check the reported collapse.  I recall this included Joel, Deano, Richard Tims maybe more.  I would like to know what percentage of the journey to MT we covered when we got to the same level as the top of the electron ladders to Halkyn Deep.

[Ian A]

[quote="JohnNicholson" post=8324] I would like to know what percentage of the journey to MT we covered when we got to the same level as the top of the electron ladders to Halkyn Deep.[/quote]

About 2/3rds I would guess  

[John Nicholson]

Gosh - so we went a lot further than I thought. I had in my mind that we had only done about 1/5th of the distance.  You took us down three big ladders, and then we went along horizontally for a short way and then decided to go back.  It amazed me that Joel's team caught up with us by the time we got near to the flooding at the addit entrance.

[Tim Watts]

Whats worthy of note by the way, is that the access agreement, with the no photos/video etc only applies to the Rhyd Alyn Mine itself. I.e. Not everything that can be accessed VIA it. i.e. The HDL and Milwr - with 100+ miles of associated workings :-) It kinda made it worth having a key and putting up with the conditions in my opinion.

[John Nicholson]

Do people in the Mine Explorer and Addit Now gropups also have access to Rhyd Alyn?
It surprises me that they have not chopped the lock.

[Ian A]

You don't know the half of it lol  

This is the "lid" that caused so much trouble with the "independants" and had police involvement. It is as a result of precisely that vigilante behaviour that NWCC issued keys (including some independants) to prevent further break-ins.

 

Ian

[Ali Wiseman]

[quote="JohnNicholson" post=8344]Do people in the Mine Explorer and Addit Now gropups also have access to Rhyd Alyn?
It surprises me that they have not chopped the lock.[/quote]

As a supporter of Lock removal (purely my own view, not UCET's), that would only happen if gaining access through "official" means was onerous. As it does not appear to be, the lock being intact is unsurprising. There may also be other entrances I am not aware of that negate the need to apply boltcutters or portable oxyacetylene setups.

[John Nicholson]

I can see both sides of the debate on open access, and I had a lot to ponder after our trip down OHA last Thursday.  Les was clearly disturbed by the graffiti on the walls of OHA - especially at the bottom of the cliff.  He spent a lot of time and energy obliterating them with mud and wiping the surface so smooth that they cannot be seen any more.  This may not have happened if the lid was locked.  

In the case of Rhyd Alun, I feel there is a need to protect the crystal chamber from anyone trying to harvest samples.  Also the ladders are potentially very dangerous.  I think there is a need to revisit the terms of access and also provide the means to get access by a notice at the entrance stating something like 'This mine is protected by the North Wales Caving Club.  For access contact : 01234 567898'