Thailand Cave Rescue

[Ian A]

Just a cautionary note ....

Honorary members have the same rights as "normal" members in the club (ie. voting etc.)

Also, the more we have, the more we tip up tot he BCA every year in subs.

FYI we have two current honorary members.

Just saying  :dry:

Ian

[Doug Thompson]

[quote="Ian" post=33778]Just a cautionary note ....

Honorary members have the same rights as "normal" members in the club (ie. voting etc.)

Also, the more we have, the more we tip up tot he BCA every year in subs.

FYI we have two current honorary members.

Just saying  :dry:

Ian[/quote]

I think you said that twice Ian, have you been drinking, or have I and I am seeing double.

[Ian A]

oh.

 :blink:

[mike leahy]

I think offering them honoury membership to a two bit tiny caving club in North Wales would be more of an insult to international cave diving folk. Just saying :whistle:  :whistle:  :whistle:

[shan keaney]

A cool discussion, thanks.

If I've got it right :_

We fail to donate to our local cave rescue team when all of our peers do.  This is £25 annually.

Our local team lost £2000 funding this year and need equipment

UCET have a small amount of funds

The BCA have a huge amount of funds (£1,000,000! really, is that true!!!)

In theory, members think the BCA should funnel some of this dosh towards clubs generally

Other sources of money may include the Welsh Sports Association, but Ade is also on the governments case.  There may be others but I was overwhelmed by acronyms sorry!

We shouldn't taint charities because of a few bad apples (I personally think more about the staggering wages of the executives!).

And to extend honorary membership to the rescuers isn't hugely favoured.

In starting this chat, the bottom line for me still remains that there are 13 young people trapped in a dire situation underground.  One highly experienced cave diver has already died in his efforts to rescue them, and the risk of further deaths is increasing by the hour for everybody on or in that mountain.  

I've cried every day since hearing about it and feel sick to the stomach thinking about it.  They're the same age as my kids, they could easily be our kids or grand kids in any other situation.  Wrangling over who 'should' do stuff doesn't progress anything regardless of the circumstances.  If I was in that situation, what I think I would appreciate most is knowing that whoever COULD DO something, did it, that I wasn't failed because of 'politics'!

So, my proposal to the UCET Committee is that :-

we immediately make the £25 annual donation to our local Cave Rescue Team to bring us in line with our peers, and continue to do so from here on in (it's less than £1 each on membership!)

we make a further one off payment of say £100 to them to show additional support for the time and effort they give for those 'just in case' moments (yes they should be working on raising their own profile but that's a different matter)

Longer term, we pressure the BCA to filter our cash for the benefit of the caving community as a whole rather than the bankers.  This could be either as an individual club or collectively as a united north Wales attack.  My suspicions being that the latter would get us further, and reinforce the notion of safety for everyone in the underworld, whether there deliberately or accidentally.  I would be happy to represent us (though the help of people who actually know 'stuff' would be best!)

The end, thank you.

My apologies for any stepping on of toes in my ignorance of 'how things work', no offense intended and I'm happy to  be put straight, but please let's do something, because actually, we CAN!

[mike leahy]

Four of the boys safely out with the rest to follow. 90 divers involved in the rescue.
Fantastic news and congrats to all

[Robin Jones]

[quote="shananna" post=33782]

The BCA have a huge amount of funds (£1,000,000! really, is that true!!!)[/quote]

I thought it was just over £200k but I could be wrong  :blink: (I am happy to be corrected)

[quote="shananna" post=33782]

(yes they should be working on raising their own profile but that's a different matter)[/quote]

Absolutely, and this was recognised at the last month's NWCRO meeting.  It is being addressed, but like you say, it isn't helping the situation at this moment in time.

[Tim Watts]

[quote="Sweetie" post=33746]I remember talking to a cave diver called Rick Stanton a few years back (remember when UCET won the free night at TSG for best club stand at Hidden Earth?) who I assume is the Richard Stanton who found them - A bloody nice bloke to be fair.[/quote]

Yup - thats him. :-)

[Tim Watts]

I Donate quite a bit of my own money to NWCRO.

In addition, just last month I did another of my local cave/mine 'talks' - this last one was for the WI (i do several a year). When asked if i want paying for 'speaking' i always say no, not a penny. When they insist or mention a donation to charity I always say to CRO - i've not kept a total but it equates to hundreds.

Also, those of us in NWCRO give up quite a bit of time, and other resources for the cause. For example, when we were all called out looking for April Jones, I burnt about £300+ quid of diesel using my landy as one of the teams vehicles over several days of searching.


So,


My view about a donation from the club to CRO? Probably a no to be honest....

why?

I think people could and should donate what they want themselves to CRO and to any other causes.

why?

Because there are already people in UCET paying A LOT more money into the club than the basic membership fee who aren't and don't expect to be reimbursed. Carabiners, Ropes, Electon ladders, SDS drills, anchors, trains, scaffolding, transport, lids, trains etc etc etc. The vast majority of whats spent in the club comes from people funding there own projects and equipment for others to share.

The fact that the club has any excess funds in the bank is wholey due to those people.

Using 'club money' to make a donation for everyone doesn't seem quite right. Especially when many, myself included, already give a lot already.

Perhaps we could have a voluntary £5 additional donation on the membership as an option to people?

Alternatively theres a link here and anyone can donate at any time:

https://mydonate.bt.com/charities/northwalescaverescueorganisation


Just my 2p's worth.

:-P

[mike leahy]

Good tupence worth if you ask me

[Les Williams]

If NWCRO needed their profile raising, and a fund raiser, they could put collecting tins in the pubs local to their main areas.
It works for other cave rescue teams and I guess a collecting tin in the Glan, and other local pubs in the area around North East Wales would go a long way to raise their profile whilst collecting peoples loose change. Most of the other cave rescue teams do something similar...

[Les Williams]

So, to answer some of your points...

[quote="shananna" post=33782]A cool discussion, thanks.

If I've got it right :_

The BCA have a huge amount of funds (£1,000,000! really, is that true!!!)
[/quote]

No, not true. The £1,000,000 was estimated as the total amount of money sloshing around within UK caving generally, so for instance, BCA has about £200k, BCRA has a similar amount. Ghar Parau has a large bank balance too. Hidden Earth has about £15k in the bank as well, despite giving around £3-5k to good caving causes each year...
 I know Wessex has around £60k in the bank at the moment and many other clubs have a large bank balance, this was all added up to get the £1,000,000 figure.

Incidentally, Wessex's money is mostly allocated to the long term upkeep of our hut. I'm pretty sure other clubs with premises have similar amounts, and for the same reasons.
BCRA has all their money from bequests and it's ring fenced to fund various grant schemes they run, and to help keep the British Caving Library running.
BCA has a lot of money too, but it needs quite a bit as it "self insures" the excess to the BCA insurance so needs enough of a buffer to keep the scheme running if there are any claims...

As for funding, BCA does have spare funds and will give them to any properly budgeted request that will benefit cavers. If the caving community think that the cave rescue teams are worthwhile recipients then it should be raised via the finance committee for consideration.

However, most cave rescue teams appear to be well funded via grants from the Home Office, via the Mountain Rescue Council, and for donations and collections.
I guess if NWCRO is strapped for cash they could do some fundraising or request funds for a specific project that need an input of cash (cave radios for instance).

[quote="shananna" post=33782]
In theory, members think the BCA should funnel some of this dosh towards clubs generally
[/quote]

BCA's funds came from the clubs and from individual members. It gets no funds from elsewhere.
It channels funds to benefit cavers generally, for instance it grant funds the British Caving Library, it grant funds Ghar Parau, It funds all the conservation and access works in the regions and the running of the regional councils (Such as Cambrian Caving Council). It grant funds the anchor program.
It also funds the Youth and Development committee in supporting younger cavers and youth/university caving clubs. It also funds Caver training.
All of this benefits all cavers and seems quite an equitable way of funding. If there were conservation and/or access projects in Wales then they would be funded, via Cambrian, from BCA's funds. It's there for the asking and to date no properly budget request has been refused (that might be different if BCA was short of funds).

[quote="shananna" post=33782]

We shouldn't taint charities because of a few bad apples (I personally think more about the staggering wages of the executives!).
[/quote]

Large charities are actually big businesses and as such believe they need suitably qualified staff, who all need to be paid. I think executives are way to highly paid generally, both charities and the private sector but unless there is a change of policy at national level, I guess the excessive pay regime for those at the top is here for some time yet...


[quote="shananna" post=33782]
And to extend honorary membership to the rescuers isn't hugely favoured.
[/quote]

The thing about Honorary membership (said an honorary member...  :whistle: ) is that you need enough full paying members to keep the club financed and in a lot of clubs, the honorary members can be a significant drain on the club's finances. A reasonable balance needs to be attained. Now I don't think that honorary members actually cost UCET much, if anything but in a lot of clubs it costs to service those members with insurance, journals, etc, without any contribution from them. Wessex for instance has around 20 honorary members, but around 300 members so that represents quite a small percentage of the membership. It all depends on how UCET's budgets stack up.

[quote="shananna" post=33782]
In starting this chat, the bottom line for me still remains that there are 13 young people trapped in a dire situation underground.  One highly experienced cave diver has already died in his efforts to rescue them, and the risk of further deaths is increasing by the hour for everybody on or in that mountain.
[/quote]

We shouldn't forget the reason we are at this debate. I'm hopeful that the expert cave divers will extract them all safely but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that this is the most complex and biggest cave rescue, ever...
The death of the Thai diver is incredibly sad but it should be noted that he wasn't a cave diver but an open water diver, as are all the Thai divers there. The environment they are in is completely alien and with that many untrained diver on site I'm honestly surprised we have only had one fatality so far. This should also be of credit to the cave divers, who it seems are now in charge of the rescue and are the only people doing the actual diving...


[quote="shananna" post=33782]  

I've cried every day since hearing about it and feel sick to the stomach thinking about it.  They're the same age as my kids, they could easily be our kids or grand kids in any other situation.  Wrangling over who 'should' do stuff doesn't progress anything regardless of the circumstances.  If I was in that situation, what I think I would appreciate most is knowing that whoever COULD DO something, did it, that I wasn't failed because of 'politics'!
[/quote]

I'm certain there is politics, but I don't believe it's affecting the actual rescue attempt. The international cave diving team are calling the shots, the Thai army divers are supporting them and they are all getting on with the job. There are no others, in the entire world, better qualified to do the extraction of the kids than those who are there and I am hopeful of a successful mission. However it goes, nobody else could ever do more than they are doing, we, as British cavers, should be immensely proud of them and the part they are playing. I for one will be buying them all a pint if I see them at Hidden Earth, or in my local...

[Ian A]

I have been thinking about how to reply to Shan’s post for a good while and had not come up with a meaningful response (still haven’t).

I can see that, Tim and Les have both posted lengthy and detailed replies.

Thank you to you both â€" I was aware of some of the content but certainly not all and certainly not the depth of it. Very helpful stuff.

I sympathise greatly with Shan’s “feelings”. I believe we all share in the horror that is unfolding in Thailand and we all feel we want to do something to help.

For most of us in the club, we will not have forgotten the event in Yorkshire a few years ago. At that time we debated making a donation to cave rescue. Most of us (all of us?) believed we should and, between, us, we escalated the donation sum right up to the point we had the pen poised on the cheque book for the “WHOLE AMOUNT” of our bank account. Something then stopped us and daylight dawned …. CRO didn’t need our (meagre) funds, they already had plenty of money. Instead, we elected to send them a crate of booze for their Christmas bash believing they would appreciate that more.

Later, when I joined CCC as Treasurer, I saw the “claims” coming in and none were made by any CRO in Wales. DaveT handled the grants they received but none of the CRO’s complained the funds were too little. In fact, it seemed they didn’t “need” the money at all. I do not believe that the Welsh CROs are in “need” of cash (I might be wrong).

What to do then?

Firstly, I didn’t know about the £25 per year other clubs make. I have not even heard of any such thing. Regardless of the Thailand incident, I would be in favour of the club matching the donation year on year. I do not believe we should cough up “back pay” because (in my eyes) it is an admission we have done something wrong â€" I don’t feel we have done anything wrong. I think the right time to do this is at the AGM (discuss, agree and pay (or not)).

Secondly, honorary members.  I have no objection to this. I do have a number of thoughts though. The two honorary members we have were credited with the accolade either because of what they have done for the club or what they could do for the club. In both cases, history has proved both decisions to be extremely well merited.  I am not certain that offering an honorary membership to the relevant cave divers is within the idiom of “honorary”. I also wonder if any other clubs in the UK (or worldwide) might (or have) offered the same thing. Would the divers really value it?  Or is it being offered to ease our own conscious? (probably the latter in my own case).

I don’t need to add any more to the discussion â€" both Tim and Les have added more than I ever could.

 

Ian

[mike leahy]

Another four lads out, eight in total so hopefully all will end well

[shan keaney]

The start of this thread was something along the lines of 'there's trapped kids with people endangering their lives to rescue them, what if anything, may we like to do as a club to show some solidarity'.

There wasn't a huge response - Doug suggested something on social media, honorary membership was touted, and the only thing I could think of was Cave Rescue.

I then tried to summarise further replies in an effort to bring it all together - the points not necessarily being mine personally.

So, the short answers are that :-

* we contribute independently to whatever if we so feel inclined

* we match our peers and pay £25 annually to NWCRO - can that be sorted please Mr Treasurer if there are no objections?

* the BCA undertakes more activities than is known or appreciated by some of us, so that was really helpful.

We don't seem to actually know the details of NWCROs finances, which perhaps shows even more need for them to get on top of it to highlight what they need and why!  That's already been brought up in their own meeting according to Sweetie.

It was never brought into question how much people contribute to our own club or any other related activities, and I think it is appreciated what people do.  Having said that, the politics I was referring to was our own and not about the Thais (they've requested money isn't sent as it's doubtful it will reach the right places).  The differing opinions, answers and reasons all expressed above.

Personally, a £25 club donation to the 'anything' seems a bit disappointing for what is recognisably a massive operation, however, I take it on board that that's my own issue and so I'll crack on as advised.

And just for info, there's been no reply from either of the countrys glorious main party leaders either!