Casterton Fell - Yorkshire

[Danny Sutton]

The moment there is official funding from a central body to carry out official work to "make safe" or "maintain" any caves or mines is the moment the hobby/sport would go to shit.

you would instantly get tied up in bureaucracy and red tape over liability and H+S isues.

thats before you even start to get into the "we fixed it, you're not comming in" mentality that would provale. and then obviously you would get the "this place is to dangerous, lock it up"

the easiest thing to do at the moment is just apply for the required permits and permision

[Joel Colk]

I've got the same opinion as Dan here. The permits do and have worked for many years. I'm sure that many of us have met the odd caver down a Yorkshire pot that clearly hasn't applied for a permit, but it's only a problem when a minority become a majority.

It's an attempt to protect and preserve the caves we love and enjoy so much after all.

[John Nicholson]

My view is that H + S does not apply to situations where people venture as a sport.  They may apply where people pay to go into a 'pay cave' as a tourism feature, and the operators of the site take responsibility for the safety of thoe who visit.

I am thinking of the situation that Ian describes so well, and the frustration we all face in protecting caves from vandalism, and at the same time protecting our right to explore freely and responsibly.  

No doubt the frustration that Ian expresses will get worse and worse as more people become involved in cave and mine exploration, and no universal system of protection and policing is achieved.  Becasue of this I feel we do need to act assertively towards establishing the best possible form of protection for the future.  It will be a lengthy process, but it will not begin without some considered impulse.

If this process is well worked out and achieves a wide concensus amoungst the exploring community, then it will be sucessful.  What we do not want is to see small power groups set up who will control cave and mine access on their own terms for their own purposes.

Part of the process should be to establish a framework through which decisions on policy are made by a democratic process in which all who are affected by any decision are enabled to take part in that decision making process.  By this means the community can set out a policy guidelines on how caves are classified in terms of risk of venture and risk of damage, and also on what technical means are regarded as 'best practice' in all situations.

I think such a process could greatly strengthen the cave exploring community, give clubs a clearly defined role in terms of managing their caves and providing legitimate access to them.  It could also improve relations between clubs and ensure a raft of funding to enable the work required to discretely improve access safety.

I also see the national BCA and regional groups such as the CCC having a much more active role in administering the funding and setting out principles by which standards are set.

[Danny Sutton]

The isue you have with what you are saying is, no none goverment governing body can dictate what can happen on private land, which is where a lotof the entrances to caves and mines are located.

If I had an entrance to a mine or cave on land that i owned, the moment someone tried to tell me who or what could go in that entrance would be the moment i made sure that hole wasn't accessable.

if it wasn't for some clubs now acting like gods, the current system would work just fine, apply for a permit if one is needed, ask permision for theones that need it, or the ones that nave no access at all, just go at night (or early on a sunday)

some places for example, long churn and giants hole have a different system in place, the place is open to all, but to get to them you pay a tresspass fee to the land owner, in return you get somewhere to park and a decent path to walk up.

on the whole, the current system works just fine for most, it is those few who are making waves which is causing the problems.

this isnt just a problem with caving, i'm sure lots of other hobbies which involves going on private lane have the same isues, the best thing to do is to just not rock the boat

[John Nicholson]

I am sure you are right that governments can't (or will not) legislate about what people can do on another person's land.  However, the 'Access to Roam' legislation shows what can be achieved through a Labour Government, and after a great deal of preparatory work.  Particular rights have also been granted to people for hunting and fishing.

But it is evident that the contention that 'this isnt just a problem with caving' is not true - other wise we would not have this topic.  Clearly there are widespread problems with access permissions.  My guess is that this problem will get a lot worse rather than better and we all need to get 'realistic' about the way we want our national and regional bodies to respond to the issue.

Personally, I think that the days of free access to caves and mines are soon comming to an end, and in the future anyone expecting to explore underground will need a licence and full insurance.  My hope is that this can be administered in such a way that will continue to allow non-club affiliated individuals to gain authorised access to protected sites.  But there needs to be a system by which it is know exactly who is visiting any site on any date, in case any damage occurs.

[Ali Wiseman]

[quote="JohnNicholson" post=9384]Personally, I think that the days of free access to caves and mines are soon coming to an end, and in the future anyone expecting to explore underground will need a licence and full insurance.[/quote]

The second anybody *tries* to license caving or Mine exploration, is when I go solo, and give up all pretences of being civil and "politically acceptable" to other clubs. I will express my contempt for such an idea in any way I possibly can, and I don't want to sully the reputation of UCET in that process. Should anybody actually manage to enforce it, I'll carry on without missing a beat.

Really... a frigging *LICENSE*?

If I'm dangerous, other people simply won't go underground with me... i do not need a piece of paper to tell them I am safe. They will ask others, or decide for themselves. I was under the impression a lot of people went underground to escape bureaucracy, not embrace more of it.

[John Nicholson]

Thats an interesting turn on the term 'underground'.

But in reality we already have a licence system - its the green card.  This proves that we are affiloiated to a Cave Club and also have BCA insurance cover.  The insurance is not to provide protection to ourselves in the event of injury but rather to protect landowners.  

When roads were built there were toll houses to collect funds from those who used roads.  This enabled the funding of better roads and developed a much better transport network. Then when motorised vehciles came about a licencing system was devised to ensure that roads could be maintained to a standard that is required for motor transport.  Now we are looking at toll systems again to fund big bridges and super motorways.  This is a fact of life to-day.

You know that you cannot get a licence for your car unless you have a MOT and can prove you have valid insurance.

The worrying thing is that the landowners at Casterton Fell could decide to close access to the caves because of the abuse of the agreement made with the local Caving Club.  This could also happen to us if things ever got tricky.  We do need to maintain a rational approach to the issue, and prove that cavers who are members of caving clubs and communities are responsible and will treat caves and mines with respect.

[Ali Wiseman]

[quote="JohnNicholson" post=9386]Thats an interesting turn on the term 'underground'. [/quote]

I'm not sure what You mean. Caves and Mines are underground. Expand if You will.



[quote="JohnNicholson" post=9386]But in reality we already have a licence system - its the green card.[/quote]

No, we don't. It's an insurance system. At no point does anyone need to prove their competence. When I bought mine last year through another organisation, all I had to do was click  a few buttons, enter my payment details, and hey presto, I'm insured. Just like your car insurance. Zero human interaction, and *anyone* can do it.

License implies, at least to me, that I would need to prove my competence underground. I have already done this, as I am typing this, and not lying at the bottom of a shaft or stop somewhere, decomposing. I will continue to do so on further trips. I will not, however, at any point, submit to a system that duplicates this, and then makes me pay for for that priveledge, (Because you *know* that is going to happen). It's simply not necessary.

You have an outlook where everything will run according to plan. I foresee a system full of red tape and frustration. All I want to do is go down a hole, not fill in bloody forms, take tests, and deal with the frustration that yet another of bureaucracy will inevitably add.

I can see the point of insurance, even if only to serve as a nice lever in negotiating access. I can not see the point of a License. The Community is pretty much self-policing, and long may it continue that way. Permits for sensitive places are fine. A Blanket license is just stupidity.

[mike leahy]

there will always be access it's just a case of how it's managed. there is also access problems with climbing ,canoeing,fishing ect ect ect . like i said it's how it's managedand like dan also said it is the mindless few who spoil it and it only comes up when some one spoils it , other wise we just get stuck in and go caving-oops or mine-exploreing

[John Oh]

[quote="mike leahy" post=9389]there will always be access it's just a case of how it's managed. there is also access problems with climbing ,canoeing,fishing ect ect ect . like i said it's how it's managedand like dan also said it is the mindless few who spoil it and it only comes up when some one spoils it , other wise we just get stuck in and go caving-oops or mine-exploreing[/quote]

Tell me about it!!

Dee Access

If any one wants to email to Ashley (Ashley.charlwood@canoewales.com) he is work on the case now, you don't have to be a paddler just want to see right of access to our rivers for all.

[mike leahy]

[quote="JohnO" post=9394][quote="mike leahy" post=9389]there will always be access it's just a case of how it's managed. there is also access problems with climbing ,canoeing,fishing ect ect ect . like i said it's how it's managedand like dan also said it is the mindless few who spoil it and it only comes up when some one spoils it , other wise we just get stuck in and go caving-oops or mine-exploreing[/quote]

Tell me about it!!

Dee Access

If any one wants to email to Ashley (Ashley.charlwood@canoewales.com) he is work on the case now, you don't have to be a paddler just want to see right of access to our rivers for all.[/quote]

i know john it's shit , thats one of the reasons i stopped paddling. why can't it be more lke scotland(FREADOM)

[mike leahy]

just been reading the DEE ACCESS
oh what fun you boy's are having.
it sounds like you guy's have a gethyn as well . hey ian you should read this dee access it's right up your street  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

it just goes to show we all have access problems