Location
SJ191 655 Cilcain, Flintshire
Directions
From the car park at the Cilcain Bridge over the River Alyn, walk up the hill towards Pantymwyn (away from Cilcain) until you see a public footpath sign heading down a steep hill on the left. Follow this down to the River Alyn (skimming the side of a caravan park) and follow the footpath for around 300 metres where you will see an obvious entrance (hands & knees) in the rock face on the right, this is Poachers cave. Continue along the footpath for another 200 feet (ish) and, located by the bank of the river (and down a slope to reach it) you will see what appears to be a manhole cover. This is the entrance.
Access
Un-gated / no permissions required
Suggested Equipment
Electron Ladder(s) & full SRT (SRT if venturing down the cliff beyond the canal)
Length
Around 1.2 miles
Flood risk
The cave can flood entirely but is usually dry and when flooded it would not be possible to access the cave in the most part.
Cave Attributes
30ft vertical entrance descent, plenty of walking passageways with plenty of (optional) off shooting crawls, a sand crawl tunnel, pitches & pots, a 200ft mud crawl, a “canalâ€, 2 sumps and many passages to explore and numerous sporting crawls.
Description
The entrance requires an electron (around 30ft) which quickly brings you into a chamber which you skirt on the left. Entering the chamber, you will find a muddy descent of little interest.
Passing beyond (and to the left) of the chamber brings you to a muddy crawl through (usually) some water for around 200ft where the passage becomes a chamber with turnings to the left and right.
Turning left, the passage is, for the most part, substantial with evidence that water disappears in several places (can be seen in the silt after a flood). The passage eventually comes to what appears to be a terminal chamber although this can be passed by climbing “through the roof†which leads to another passageway. This passage becomes tight but it is possible to slip into another chamber at an apparent terminus. Once in this chamber there is again evidence of water flow (to the right) which appears too small to follow. On the left there is a low, flat out crawl that was discovered in early 2008 by UCET cavers. This requires (or required) some minimal effort digging to remove sufficient silt to allow passage.
Turning right from the 200ft muddy crawl, you pass across many huge and fallen boulders assisted at one point by a knotted rope in situ. The passage continues through a short duck where it soon offers a left hand turn.
Proceeding forwards (without taking the turn) you end up in a large and muddy terminal chamber with an awkward pitch down (apparently to nothing) and an awkward muddy slope up to the back left.
Just before this apparent terminal chamber, on the right, is a very tight “S†bend passage which is mostly concealed. This requires a sideways wriggle and drops into a small chamber. This was also discovered after a flood in early 2008 by UCET cavers (probably previously undiscovered). Once in the chamber, there is an awkward crawl to the rear which, at first look appears to go no where. However, this crawl can be negotiated sideways and leads to another chamber/rift again discovered by UCET cavers in early 2008.
Returning to the left hand turn in the passage which was ignored to reach the above area, turning left you will experience some wonderfully formed and large passageways leading to what appears to be an observation post window. A small scramble is required here where, again, a small and tight snaking passage can be found low in the right hand wall. This was discovered and excavated by UCET cavers in early 2008 and leads to a silt filled cavern which can be crawled through in two directions to at least one further (and digable) silt filled cavern.
Returning to the main passage, the tunnel continues until a sand (silt) crawl manifests. In floods this tunnel is prone to filling with sand/silt and requires re-digging. Passing through the crawl the tunnel leads to a further chamber which requires another scramble and then another awkward sideways crawl to get yourself into another in chamber. At the rear of this chamber there is a freeclimb which can be rope assisted of around 40 feet (or an electron dropped). Once up, the passage continues until a high shelf crawl can be found on the right. Crawling in this passage you will come to a tight left hand crawl which dives into an apparent sump and further still another tight diving crawl which leads to the unknown (it takes a caver of slim build to enter this and it is recommended to lash a rope around an ankle). There is also a silt filled rift chamber here which is potentially digable.
Returning again to the main passage, you will lose the floor as the left and right wall form a “V†shape with a trench of water. This leads to an short passage filled to chest height with water (which cannot be avoided).
Beyond this “canal†the passage continues to an interesting section of cave which resembles an eroded bedding plane. At the back of here is a significant pitch which requires a good knotted rope or rope/rocker or SRT which leads down to further passage which travels to and beyond two sumps and then onwards for another, circa, 1000feet.
Unexplored Passages
1) Beyond the cliff beyond the canal (before and after the sumps) has not been properly explored (requires a full day)
2) At the very far opposite end of the cave a new tight tunnel appears to have become apparent following a flood, discovered in 2008.
Digs
1) On a bend, by the “lookout†section of the cave, a dig has recently been undertaken which leads into a totally silted chamber. This chamber has been crossed leading to another totally silted chamber which requires further digging
2) The newly discovered passageway at the far end of the OHA requires a small dig to make it passable
Links
Wikipedia.org
UK Caves
Chris Cowdry
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff60%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2Fscan0010.jpg&hash=9c2dcfbf9a12fc85b2fa48630f612da306b41bec) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=57&u=13401959)
Map showing location of the new found passage (not to scale)
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff60%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2Fhpim2410.jpg&hash=305ee348884ee8ea3aa9eb014c40a0f7686adf66) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=58&u=13401959)
The entrance by the River Alyn
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff60%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2Fpictur17.jpg&hash=205b151e12fa0ffb4df78823ef7b3852b2b6ccd3) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=59&u=13401959)
The beginning of the long muddy crawl
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff60%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2Fhpim2411.jpg&hash=89d230f6ea763b8f00b45fa7a34af1d325294c44) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=60&u=13401959)
The short duck
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff60%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2Fhpim3613.jpg&hash=2f3ad48f0f8149207d88cc54c9f8b484e8b50cde) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=62&u=13401959)
The first freeclimb or assisted ascent
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff60%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2Fhpim2510.jpg&hash=9ade193184ab47254b68f9c0d0fa67cdf7dae606) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=63&u=13401959)
The observation post
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff60%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2Fhpim3614.jpg&hash=d19d15b4c2de99dbfbec2a68c82f98f454b3df09) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=64&u=13401959)
The sand crawl
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff60%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2Fhpim3615.jpg&hash=9cb8b79737d8496f8d2d1fab67c6303f47a01202) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=65&u=13401959)
The canal (ropes now removed)
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff60%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2Fhpim3616.jpg&hash=b8d2974c2af2fe79cebf90839d95fa880ef9b266) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=66&u=13401959)
The bedding plane chamber
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi30.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff30%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2F100_1210.jpg&hash=a6cd90fbfb5afae97575ffa814891cc618470af9) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1717&u=13401959)
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi30.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff30%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2F100_1211.jpg&hash=b7f721204a0fe1831e86fd189040b757ddccef5b) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1718&u=13401959)
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi30.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff30%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2F100_1212.jpg&hash=785eedd63e86162c1f268f1699887589341a0e67) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1719&u=13401959)
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi30.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff30%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2F100_1213.jpg&hash=8ba7049fd6e87be1be96dc83d8b6db0b988f2223) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1720&u=13401959)
(https://test.anduin.org.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi30.servimg.com%2Fu%2Ff30%2F13%2F40%2F19%2F59%2F100_1310.jpg&hash=1e724585d670bdda064ea734f1f4b13206dd8cd5) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1721&u=13401959)
Right, got the right cave this time round...
Found these from 2009. It sums up the place quite nicely :)
joel - you REALLY need to see past the canal! :-)
I know! I really want to. Time to utilise the diary again :)
Me too, when you go. Have been wanting to do OHA for a while now :-)
Tom
needs to be a LOT drier first - spring/summer.
i want
A lot drier!!! Still waiting Tim ..... :woohoo: :woohoo:
ANd beers afterwards :)
[quote="Labrat" post=14532]A lot drier!!! Still waiting Tim ..... :woohoo: :woohoo:
ANd beers afterwards :)[/quote]
claire. you will have to stop turning blue if you want to reach the end :huh: :huh: :huh: sorry
Mike. Anyone who is wet through and stops and waits for a set period of time will start to get cold - it is normal. Once moving again, blueness passes and warmth returns! I know when to turn back and when to carry on. I know my abilities. The fact that we had to wait for the pump to work etc obviously has not been considered in the blueness process of heat being required by the main body organs!
I shall paint red lipstick next time... Also, did you come on the trip? As far as I remember it was Mark, Guy, Tim and myself.
[quote="Labrat" post=14582]Mike.... blueness process ....[/quote]
Captain ... put that in your pipe and smoke it LOL :P
What's the access season like? When does the cave flood, if it floods at all?
Just plannin'
The cave has no access restrictions - you can go whenever you like.
It does flood but, personally, I don't know of any specific pattern or set of circumstances that need to prevail for it to do so. It appears to be very random.
Over the last 8 years, I (again personally) have only known it to flood twice. If it does, typically you won't get very far in before you are met with impassable water.
:(
Ian
What if it decides to flood after cavers have gone past the sand crawl?
You'd be in for a wait until it recedes ;)
Have any sort of provisions been stored in case this were to happen? Is there any communication system or rope to transmit movement through the places that flood? Is that what the telephone wires were for originally?
1) Cavers should leave details of their trip (and time out) with a responsible adult who can alert rescue if there is a problem (you make your own provision)
2) Communication system - no (there isn't in any other caves either)
3) I think Murf put the phone wire in and I think it was for emergencies. However, it is easier ro fathom quantum mechanics than it is Murf's brain ;)
Ian
[quote="Ian" post=20500]1) However, it is easier ro fathom quantum mechanics than it is Murf's brain ;)
Ian[/quote]
lmao :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
[quote="JohnNicholson" post=20497]What if it decides to flood after cavers have gone past the sand crawl?[/quote]
You either
a) Die of hyperthermia
b) Drown
c) Starve
or possibly and most likely a combination of all three which is why OHA is a grade 5 cave and should not be underestimated. Added to that, any attempt at a rescue from its deeper reaches would be very very difficult even in non flood conditions.
[quote="timwatts" post=20506][quote="JohnNicholson" post=20497]What if it decides to flood after cavers have gone past the sand crawl?[/quote]
You either
a) Die of hyperthermia
b) Drown
c) Starve
or possibly and most likely a combination of all three which is why OHA is a grade 5 cave and should not be underestimated. Added to that, any attempt at a rescue from its deeper reaches would be very very difficult even in non flood conditions.[/quote]
Although you could always exit through the second entrance (if you find it soon...) :whistle:
preciexactly! :-D
Tim
I'd still like to get an overlay of the OHA system onto an OS map. I still reckon that by drawing an arc rotating it around using the 'end' of the cave as a scribe will give us an idea where the end might be, ie somewhere on that arc, I'm particularly interested where it would intersect with the river.
Has Mick got one?
tim's got one frank
got some more elevation data at home somewhere too.
Oh yes
That will do for starters
Thanks
Interesting
If you look at the plan of poachers the end of the cave shows it quite a distance from where it actually is, am I correct?
I also notice some small squares on the map, is this anything significant? Known sinks for example?
Is the river flowing at the moment? And does it ever flow along the river bed near the entrance?
The river bed was looking remarkably vegetation free... :unsure:
Tim et al,
Have you thought of using a ground transmitter/receiver to locate the aven from the surface. The molephone is a rather sophisticated version on this, but something cruder may suffice. You need a source of low frequency radio waves in the aven - this can be just be a simple 2 transistor multivibrator running at 1khz from a 12v motorcycle battery. You hammer a couple of metal rods about 8-10' apart in the aven and couple them up to the oscillator output and then retire to the surface. a standard 7AH battery should run the oscillator for a few days. On the surface you need a similar pair of probes, a small amplifier and a pair of headphones. You could space the probes about 3' apart using a wooden frame (like the timeteam resistance survey) and then wander around poking it into the ground and listening for the tone. The louder it gets the closer you are. For real sophistication add recfifier and meter to show the signal strength. The electrical field will travel quite long distances in damp ground - what we have now :-( and you should be able to locate within about 10 metres.
There are a few caveats: Ground resistance isn't uniform and so you may get a strong signal from a point not immediately above the aven if there is conduit of conductive damp soil while the surrounds are rock or a specially damp area with the rest dryish soil. But its probably more reliable than smoke testing.
Dave
PS. If you don't have any tame electronics experts I could probably knock something up for you, but I am not sure I would want to brave the sumps to fit it at present :-)
Frank, blue dots are photos that show on google earth on which the overlay was added to.
Dave, we have somone who works for maplin in our numbers so have somone who can knock one up. (and has offered to do so iirc)
I have indeed started to put together schematics etc. The coils will be the hardest part, Copper isn't cheap. The multivibrator itself is easy enough, as is the power source (I have enough Li-Ion's to light up a cave rave for days). I was going to go for lower frequencies, but we'll see what happens. This is not likely to happen before Xmas though.
if you have a look through CREG website i remember theres some PCB templates and component lists and instructions for tried and tested methods for winding coils on there somewhere. Not got time to search just now coz bit hectic at work but have a look and i'm sure you'll find it.
I you want to obtain parts from work and make one up either I or UCET will cover the costs.
http://bcra.org.uk/creg/
yer i think it was on Brians page.... http://radiolocation.tripod.com/
I'm a subscriber (paid up) for CREG so let me know if u need any past journals - but that said its only £4 or £5 a year to join yourself if you fancy it.
ohh and whoever was asking - yes the river regualarly flows on the surface under wetter conditions - when the flow rate via the caves reaches is maximum flow capacity and the sink holes back up until everythings flowing on the surface.
No need to cover costs, I'm happy to do it, but time will play just as much a factor. I have had a brief look at CREG, and found a few bits. My problem is trying to make a low, *reliable* frequency. The lower it is, the farther it travels, so I want to go as low as is practical.
ECW is way cheaper from ebay, I guesstimate I'll need about 1-1.5KG of 24SWG for both coils. The electronics can probably be made fairly intelligent if needs be, micro-controllers are cheap these days.
EDIT
Will 30M vertically and 70M horizontally Max (for Radiolocation, not comms), be enough for our immediate purposes?
I already have that page, and one it links to, bookmarked. I plan on making, at least to begin with, a "basic 2", operating frequency 1.75Khz.
yer - basic 2 was the one i was looking at a while back - got as far as etching a PCB ready for it but god only knows where thats gone now.
HI- Can any one tell what in situ ropes are in place to sump one.
i can assure you all I did not put no wire in, I had 10 years of that shit hole before the club got formed
and can anyone put there hand on heart and say murph was our trip,no because I hate the shithole .
Murf,
Did you notice that the posts you are replying to are over three years old?
The "current" question is about whether or not there is a rope on the pitch ahead of sump 1.
My recollection is that there is one there in poor condition but I would not like to say as I was certainly not on either of the last two trips past the canal ....
Ian
the ropes are all in place but discretion should be used as no-one knows how long they have been in situ, the one on the 90ft cliff is probably the newest (about 4years old)
What second enterance?
[quote="Stevekennedy" post=44519]What second enterance?[/quote]
The one that no one has found yet
How do they know there is one
Not 100 percent sure, but the direction water comes in and maybe drafts in certain place.
I'm sure someone could confirm this