Budgie is taking a group of scouts found the spa mine at 6.30snd could do with a hand.
I can't sorry
Dunno if I can make that one, will be along for Thursday the 25th though.
I should be able to attend, may need reminding.
Is this down Hendre Spa? I should be able to help out
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I will help with this one Budge I will go early and rig all the pitches for life lineing so when you arrive just rig
them up . Mick
If any thing I can do would like to come along and help. Off most Tuesdays and will make shore I get this one.
I would like to but unfortunately I am on the later shift Monday and Tuesday.
as Budgies e-mail and phone number are not on our contacts list I have no way of getting in touch, I need to know will these scouts have harnesses and cows tails or load bearing belts I need to know so that I can put the right
rigging in place, if some one can send me either I would be grateful, mick
No such thing as a load bearing belt
that's were you are wrong
4.
Load Bearing Belt
Each members
of the party should be equipped with a
load bearing or belay belt. Not only is the
belt able to support body weight for a
short period of time but it can also be
easily converted into a simple and effective seat harness which is suitable for
climbing ladder pitches and emergency hoists (see section on improvised
harnesses).
5.
A rope must not be tied dirrectly to a load bearing belt. The belt is
designed to have the load spread evenly across the whole width of the webbing.
If the rope is tied dirrectly to the belt it can put all the load onto the thin edge of
the webbing, which could cause it to fail. The prefered method is to have a "D"
ring or a delta/semicircular maillon permanently threaded onto the belt and
either attach the rope directly to the maillon or via a karabiner. It is acceptable
to clip a large karabiner directly to the belt, however care must be taken to
prevent loading the karabiner across its gate.
source please
type in rappel belts, used by emergency services, armed forces, and can be used for emergency absail but
we use them for belaying up or down when climbing ladders needs 7,000 lbs to break it
i don't want to get into debate about load bearing belts or not.
But one thing for 100% certain i'd disagree with it the idea that it is 'acceptable' to use a karabiner directly on a belt as that texts suggests may be done. Its almost guaranteed to cross load in the event of a fall and break the gate.
If anyone's thinking of using a belt for hanging on (i've abseiled a proper free hanging pitch on one once out of 'necessity' (stupidity) when doing the Ogof Draenen round trip and it was actually not too uncomfortable - and that by the way is NOT a recommendation) please use a mailion of some sort - d ring is ideal - or as said - tie in directly.
They're Scouts, Bear Grylls won't mind what you do!!!
By the way - apols once again - i'm not around to help on the 23rd - not working for once but i'm due to be up in the lakes with a couple of old work colleagues probably getting up to no good!
Budgie
I can help out on the 23rd.
I will be going over to the spar mine on Tuesday at 4,0 pm to rig the pitches for Budgie and the scouts I will be placing a plank over that void into that side passage and rebolting the rope higer up rather than relying on it tied to a rock also a note of interest a hole has opened up on that horizontal vien half way up the hill towards the ladderway on the left hand side about a 100ft from the pathway.mick
FAO Budge
will leave the belts at the first ladderway entrance, going under at 4.0.pm to rig will surface at 6.30 pm
will have my phone so you can buzz me when you arrive ,mick
Some Info ( Note not written by me )
A Method of Testing the Strength of Heavy Duty Caving Belts
The aim of this little test was to establish a method to test the strength of heavy duty caving belts that did not rely on having access to a load cell.
What strength does a belt need to be?
Well, this one is a potential can of worms…. Let’s be clear, the manufacturers do not condone the use of their heavy duty belts for taking any load at all. There is a historical use in cave and mine exploration that involves using the belt for the purpose of slip prevention and security on steep ground. If you were intending to use it for this purpose, you’d need to be sure that the belt was strong enough for that, something that the manufacturers will not say.
We take the figure for a heavy person with kit that is used for some load ratings on PPE equipment: 120kg.
If a caver has a short lanyard which they climb above, ignoring all stretch or slack in a system, we will assume a possible fall of 1 metre onto the belt. The person will then be travelling 9.81 m/s (acceleration due to gravity).
velocity = ? (distance x gravity x 2)
v = ? (1 x 9.81 x 2)
v = 4.43 m/s
Kinetic energy = (v²m)/2
Ke = (4.43² x 120)/2
Ke = 117.72 J
Impact force = Kinetic energy / Impact distance
iF = 117.72 / 0.1 (arbitrary minimum for complete stop)
iF = 1177.2 N
Impact Force = 1.177 kN
Confirmation:
Force = Mass x Acceleration
F = 120 x 9.81
F = 1177.2 N / 1.177kN
So a 1m drop of a 120kg caver onto a belt, not taking into account any stretch or bounce, produces a force of nearly 1.2kN.
Apply to this any safety factor you wish. Worse case? Twice the force falling onto half the strength of kit due to wear and age: 2 x 1.2kN = 2.4kN force will need to be held for a worst case fall and we halve the strength for old, worn or wet kit so 2 x 2.4kN = 4.8kN.
So as long as we can apply a test force of 4.8kN or more to the belt, we can be assured that the item can hold the greatest possible force we can apply to it even if not in new condition. The only remaining factor of concern is that would applying this force in test render the belt unsafe to use again, in essence, are these tests destructive? Only 1 way find out…..
You could easily argue that this figure is seriously overkill for a belt so you should undertake your own discussion as to the correct safety factor to apply and then make sure you test to that, e.g. 2.4kN using 2 or 3 people on the 3:1 MA system.
Testing
Using 1 very large Corsican Pine and a good sized Birch tree, we set up a pull testing rig with a simple 3:1 theoretical configuration. I used a Rock Exotica load cell to get live feedback on the testing here but if you copy the method, you would not need to use one.
For the estimation of test force we regarded each person capable of pulling 50kg. Through a theoretical 3:1 MA system that would be 150kg per person. With 5 undertaking the pull reaching 750kg and 6 equalling 900kg or approximately 7.5kn and 9kN respectively.
Due to the force expected to be placed on the rope, I did not anticipate that I would be able to untie the end knot (fig 8 loop). This was accurate and the knot had to be cut from the rope end. Bare this in mind with your own rope!
We also used a Petzl Rollclip to redirect the angle of pull to make it easier to stand on the tarmac of the road alongside the trees.
Initially we had 5 people pulling the first test on a Lyon roller-buckle belt (brand new).
This produced a force of 5.9kN with no damage or slippage. This is lower than expected but there was a lot of tightening in the knot and stretch in the rope coupled with a general timidness of the pulling team.
The remaining tests used 6 people to pull. This one was conducted on my 10 year old Caving Supplies square buckle belt (already retired). This belt has nicks, fluff and rust and comfortably took a force of 7.74kN showing no damage or slippage.Next came my current AV belt, with it’s central maillon removed and directly attached to the pull line. This belt held 7.7kN without failure or slippage.Finally, the pulling team seemed at their most confident that nothing was going to break and send shards of metal and wood at them so they really gave the last belt some pain.
This Warmbac square buckle belt was subjected to 8.64kN with no damage or slippage noted at the time.It is not surprising that the force exerted by the pulling team was less than the theoretical 3:1 system implied. In practice with the loss of friction due to bearings and turns in the rope a 2.5:1 is a more real world figure and so our 5 x 50kg pulling average adults could be expected to make 500kg/5kN using this system. Add a 6th person if the ground is poor or your team are small!
Conclusions
Using a system like the one shown here, with 5 people pulling at average strengths, you can apply a force greater than 4.8kN to your test belt.
Once the test is complete you should thoroughly examine the belt to see if any damage or slippage has occurred. Any that do show signs of damage should be retired. Any slippage may be down to the buckle tightening down so consider testing again. If a belt has taken the test load and shows no damage or deformity then you can be comfortably sure that the belt will be fit for its intended use.
Final inspection of belts:
Lyon roller buckle 5.9kN No damage, continuing to use.
Caving Supplies square buckle 7.74kN No damage, already retired.
AV maillon closed harness buckle 7.7kN No damage, continuing to use.
Warmbac square buckle 8.64kN No damage, slight curvature to webbing now when hung vertically which indicates over stretching or broken fibres down one side. Retired from service.
As a side note, I maintain that the Caving Supplies belts are the tanks of the heavy duty caving belt world and, if kept very clean, will ultimately outperform every other type or brand available. I think this test shows that well as the CS belt had at least 5 more years of abuse over the other belts.
thanks for that Mark have had a caving supplies belt which I have had for 10 years and is kept clean and looked after
I often us my belt when being belayed down ladders as there is little or no fall factor as I am always under load and often have to call for slack and have once or twice descended and inclined slope on it, so has my approval and many thanks for the tests.Mick