The situation with the kids stuck in the cave in Thailand and the risks that the rescue teams have been and still are taking, has overwhelmed me.
I've written to Theresa May and copied in Jeremy Corbyn to ask that the rescuers be given some public recognition for their extreme bravery, and wondered if there's anything we could do as a club to show our appreciation and support too. I've no idea what, but if anyone's interested and has ideas, I'd look into following them up if possible.
Cheers
I agree, no idea what though, how about something on social media
Possibly but I'm not personally au fait with all that guff so I'd need help.
I've also thought about making a donation from club funds to Cave Rescue as we have some dosh, they need equipment and I think, to raise their profile. Even if we hope never to need them, they're obviously serving a purpose which is dramatic and traumatic at times - not just for clumsy chihauhas!
Would that be an Executive decision - shall I make a proposal?!!
[quote="shananna" post=33744]
- shall I make a proposal?!![/quote]
Go ahead ;)
Excellent call Shan, although I have no suggestions other than making the team members involved in the rescue honorary members of UCET. I remember talking to a cave diver called Rick Stanton a few years back (rememeber when UCET won the free night at TSG for best club stand at Hidden Earth?) who I assume is the Richard Stanton who found them - A bloody nice bloke to be fair.
In terms of Dosh, our very own local Cave Rescue team have lost significant funding this year (Circa £2k) and we have 2 stretchers which are nearing the end of their life (one expires next year and one in 2020 if I recall correctly)
Incidentally, UCET is one of only 2 local clubs who don't make an annual contribution. (NWCC, Grosvenor, PUG & GOES all donate £25 per year as the 4 founding clubs of NWCRO)
As someone said above, we all hope we never need them, but it's great that we have a local team and a fantastic skill set across the British Cave Rescue Team as a whole.
Today is a great day for British Cave Rescue. Let's hope they are all reunited with their families very soon.
[quote="Sweetie" post=33746]
Incidentally, UCET is one of only 2 local clubs who don't make an annual contribution. (NWCC, Grosvenor, PUG & GOES all donate £25 per year as the 4 founding clubs of NWCRO)
[/quote]
I didn't know that :blink:
The guardian has an article on the rescuers:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/03/the-guardian-view-on-the-thai-cave-rescue-saluting-the-volunteers
[quote="shananna" post=33744]Possibly but I'm not personally au fait with all that guff so I'd need help.
I've also thought about making a donation from club funds to Cave Rescue as we have some dosh, they need equipment and I think, to raise their profile. Even if we hope never to need them, they're obviously serving a purpose which is dramatic and traumatic at times - not just for clumsy chihauhas!
Would that be an Executive decision - shall I make a proposal?!![/quote]
Personally I think we should let the dust settle as I'm sure there will be a national fund we could contribute to
Do you mean for the Thai kids specifically?
As has been evident in the press lately with Oxfam and all that stuff, donations don't always go where intended. However, if we gave to our own Cave Rescue (locally or nationally however it works) I think we'd be more certain it's used for it's intended purpose and could serve both home and abroad if required - we could buy a chihauha handbag to cart down!.
Either way, is there an agreement that the club could make a donation somewhere, it sounds like it, and unless anyone's media savvy we have no other ideas to show our support.
Two of the geezers involved are already 'decorated' it would seem, and I wasn't thinking of that guff necessarily, but just some specific recognition for their insane bravity (if there is such a word!) from our glorious leaders would be good.
Blah blah blah - let's do this thing you guys :sick: !!!
I am all for supporting certain groups , especially volunteer organisations. However Cave rescue should be getting funding from local or national government and should be canvassed through the BCA. I For the small amount of funds UCET has, I personally would prefer it to be used for equipment to keep our members safety paramount. I will spend some time speaking to local and national Government on how funding can be accessed for cave rescue organisations. Will post any information I get.
NWCRO and SMWCRT should get a yearly grant from the Welsh Sports Association. When I started as secretary of CCC I had to submit n application to the WSA for the Sports Safety Grant which we then passed to the two CRO's.
It was a bit of a faff as they had to provide the paperwork to me and then I submitted it. After two years the system was changed so they applied direct to the WSA and CCC had no role. AFAIK they still get a yearly grant to replace equipment and for training - but I have no idea how much it is now.
I think the BCA could take a role in funnelling donations from clubs, but if individual clubs want to fund their local CRO then I am fine with that. NWCRO seem to be quite low profile, they don't get many shouts (which is good), but it does mean they tend to fade out of view. Often other organisations get called out instead of them as people calling 999 fail to ask for the police and so get the fire service which then call one of the mountain teams out (as per the Cae Coch rescue a couple of years ago)
Dave
BCA have quite a substantial bank account
[quote="mike leahy" post=33770]BCA have quite a substantial bank account[/quote]
Yes and at this years AGM the point was made that the BCA, caving clubs and rescue organisations had in total over £1,000,000 just sitting in bank accounts...
There was a suggestion the BCA should spend a bit more - I don't think there was a consensus on what...
Dave
After reading all this, I agree that making the individual team members honorary members of UCET would be a gesture we could make.
just a point though about donating to large charities like Oxfam, they have suffered a lot recently over the paranoia regarding donations, they are a huge organization working in all countries where people are suffering, often at great danger to themselves.
It is unfair to allow a few bad apples to affect our attitude to donating, there is no alternative to the aid that they and other charities provide, all governments are a worthless bunch of morons, including ours.
Just a cautionary note ....
Honorary members have the same rights as "normal" members in the club (ie. voting etc.)
Also, the more we have, the more we tip up tot he BCA every year in subs.
FYI we have two current honorary members.
Just saying :dry:
Ian
Just a cautionary note ....
Honorary members have the same rights as "normal" members in the club (ie. voting etc.)
Also, the more we have, the more we tip up tot he BCA every year in subs.
FYI we have two current honorary members.
Just saying :dry:
Ian
[quote="Ian" post=33778]Just a cautionary note ....
Honorary members have the same rights as "normal" members in the club (ie. voting etc.)
Also, the more we have, the more we tip up tot he BCA every year in subs.
FYI we have two current honorary members.
Just saying :dry:
Ian[/quote]
I think you said that twice Ian, have you been drinking, or have I and I am seeing double.
oh.
:blink:
I think offering them honoury membership to a two bit tiny caving club in North Wales would be more of an insult to international cave diving folk. Just saying :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:
A cool discussion, thanks.
If I've got it right :_
We fail to donate to our local cave rescue team when all of our peers do. This is £25 annually.
Our local team lost £2000 funding this year and need equipment
UCET have a small amount of funds
The BCA have a huge amount of funds (£1,000,000! really, is that true!!!)
In theory, members think the BCA should funnel some of this dosh towards clubs generally
Other sources of money may include the Welsh Sports Association, but Ade is also on the governments case. There may be others but I was overwhelmed by acronyms sorry!
We shouldn't taint charities because of a few bad apples (I personally think more about the staggering wages of the executives!).
And to extend honorary membership to the rescuers isn't hugely favoured.
In starting this chat, the bottom line for me still remains that there are 13 young people trapped in a dire situation underground. One highly experienced cave diver has already died in his efforts to rescue them, and the risk of further deaths is increasing by the hour for everybody on or in that mountain.
I've cried every day since hearing about it and feel sick to the stomach thinking about it. They're the same age as my kids, they could easily be our kids or grand kids in any other situation. Wrangling over who 'should' do stuff doesn't progress anything regardless of the circumstances. If I was in that situation, what I think I would appreciate most is knowing that whoever COULD DO something, did it, that I wasn't failed because of 'politics'!
So, my proposal to the UCET Committee is that :-
we immediately make the £25 annual donation to our local Cave Rescue Team to bring us in line with our peers, and continue to do so from here on in (it's less than £1 each on membership!)
we make a further one off payment of say £100 to them to show additional support for the time and effort they give for those 'just in case' moments (yes they should be working on raising their own profile but that's a different matter)
Longer term, we pressure the BCA to filter our cash for the benefit of the caving community as a whole rather than the bankers. This could be either as an individual club or collectively as a united north Wales attack. My suspicions being that the latter would get us further, and reinforce the notion of safety for everyone in the underworld, whether there deliberately or accidentally. I would be happy to represent us (though the help of people who actually know 'stuff' would be best!)
The end, thank you.
My apologies for any stepping on of toes in my ignorance of 'how things work', no offense intended and I'm happy to be put straight, but please let's do something, because actually, we CAN!
Four of the boys safely out with the rest to follow. 90 divers involved in the rescue.
Fantastic news and congrats to all
[quote="shananna" post=33782]
The BCA have a huge amount of funds (£1,000,000! really, is that true!!!)[/quote]
I thought it was just over £200k but I could be wrong :blink: (I am happy to be corrected)
[quote="shananna" post=33782]
(yes they should be working on raising their own profile but that's a different matter)[/quote]
Absolutely, and this was recognised at the last month's NWCRO meeting. It is being addressed, but like you say, it isn't helping the situation at this moment in time.
[quote="Sweetie" post=33746]I remember talking to a cave diver called Rick Stanton a few years back (remember when UCET won the free night at TSG for best club stand at Hidden Earth?) who I assume is the Richard Stanton who found them - A bloody nice bloke to be fair.[/quote]
Yup - thats him. :-)
I Donate quite a bit of my own money to NWCRO.
In addition, just last month I did another of my local cave/mine 'talks' - this last one was for the WI (i do several a year). When asked if i want paying for 'speaking' i always say no, not a penny. When they insist or mention a donation to charity I always say to CRO - i've not kept a total but it equates to hundreds.
Also, those of us in NWCRO give up quite a bit of time, and other resources for the cause. For example, when we were all called out looking for April Jones, I burnt about £300+ quid of diesel using my landy as one of the teams vehicles over several days of searching.
So,
My view about a donation from the club to CRO? Probably a no to be honest....
why?
I think people could and should donate what they want themselves to CRO and to any other causes.
why?
Because there are already people in UCET paying A LOT more money into the club than the basic membership fee who aren't and don't expect to be reimbursed. Carabiners, Ropes, Electon ladders, SDS drills, anchors, trains, scaffolding, transport, lids, trains etc etc etc. The vast majority of whats spent in the club comes from people funding there own projects and equipment for others to share.
The fact that the club has any excess funds in the bank is wholey due to those people.
Using 'club money' to make a donation for everyone doesn't seem quite right. Especially when many, myself included, already give a lot already.
Perhaps we could have a voluntary £5 additional donation on the membership as an option to people?
Alternatively theres a link here and anyone can donate at any time:
https://mydonate.bt.com/charities/northwalescaverescueorganisation
Just my 2p's worth.
:-P
Good tupence worth if you ask me
If NWCRO needed their profile raising, and a fund raiser, they could put collecting tins in the pubs local to their main areas.
It works for other cave rescue teams and I guess a collecting tin in the Glan, and other local pubs in the area around North East Wales would go a long way to raise their profile whilst collecting peoples loose change. Most of the other cave rescue teams do something similar...
So, to answer some of your points...
[quote="shananna" post=33782]A cool discussion, thanks.
If I've got it right :_
The BCA have a huge amount of funds (£1,000,000! really, is that true!!!)
[/quote]
No, not true. The £1,000,000 was estimated as the total amount of money sloshing around within UK caving generally, so for instance, BCA has about £200k, BCRA has a similar amount. Ghar Parau has a large bank balance too. Hidden Earth has about £15k in the bank as well, despite giving around £3-5k to good caving causes each year...
I know Wessex has around £60k in the bank at the moment and many other clubs have a large bank balance, this was all added up to get the £1,000,000 figure.
Incidentally, Wessex's money is mostly allocated to the long term upkeep of our hut. I'm pretty sure other clubs with premises have similar amounts, and for the same reasons.
BCRA has all their money from bequests and it's ring fenced to fund various grant schemes they run, and to help keep the British Caving Library running.
BCA has a lot of money too, but it needs quite a bit as it "self insures" the excess to the BCA insurance so needs enough of a buffer to keep the scheme running if there are any claims...
As for funding, BCA does have spare funds and will give them to any properly budgeted request that will benefit cavers. If the caving community think that the cave rescue teams are worthwhile recipients then it should be raised via the finance committee for consideration.
However, most cave rescue teams appear to be well funded via grants from the Home Office, via the Mountain Rescue Council, and for donations and collections.
I guess if NWCRO is strapped for cash they could do some fundraising or request funds for a specific project that need an input of cash (cave radios for instance).
[quote="shananna" post=33782]
In theory, members think the BCA should funnel some of this dosh towards clubs generally
[/quote]
BCA's funds came from the clubs and from individual members. It gets no funds from elsewhere.
It channels funds to benefit cavers generally, for instance it grant funds the British Caving Library, it grant funds Ghar Parau, It funds all the conservation and access works in the regions and the running of the regional councils (Such as Cambrian Caving Council). It grant funds the anchor program.
It also funds the Youth and Development committee in supporting younger cavers and youth/university caving clubs. It also funds Caver training.
All of this benefits all cavers and seems quite an equitable way of funding. If there were conservation and/or access projects in Wales then they would be funded, via Cambrian, from BCA's funds. It's there for the asking and to date no properly budget request has been refused (that might be different if BCA was short of funds).
[quote="shananna" post=33782]
We shouldn't taint charities because of a few bad apples (I personally think more about the staggering wages of the executives!).
[/quote]
Large charities are actually big businesses and as such believe they need suitably qualified staff, who all need to be paid. I think executives are way to highly paid generally, both charities and the private sector but unless there is a change of policy at national level, I guess the excessive pay regime for those at the top is here for some time yet...
[quote="shananna" post=33782]
And to extend honorary membership to the rescuers isn't hugely favoured.
[/quote]
The thing about Honorary membership (said an honorary member... :whistle: ) is that you need enough full paying members to keep the club financed and in a lot of clubs, the honorary members can be a significant drain on the club's finances. A reasonable balance needs to be attained. Now I don't think that honorary members actually cost UCET much, if anything but in a lot of clubs it costs to service those members with insurance, journals, etc, without any contribution from them. Wessex for instance has around 20 honorary members, but around 300 members so that represents quite a small percentage of the membership. It all depends on how UCET's budgets stack up.
[quote="shananna" post=33782]
In starting this chat, the bottom line for me still remains that there are 13 young people trapped in a dire situation underground. One highly experienced cave diver has already died in his efforts to rescue them, and the risk of further deaths is increasing by the hour for everybody on or in that mountain.
[/quote]
We shouldn't forget the reason we are at this debate. I'm hopeful that the expert cave divers will extract them all safely but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that this is the most complex and biggest cave rescue, ever...
The death of the Thai diver is incredibly sad but it should be noted that he wasn't a cave diver but an open water diver, as are all the Thai divers there. The environment they are in is completely alien and with that many untrained diver on site I'm honestly surprised we have only had one fatality so far. This should also be of credit to the cave divers, who it seems are now in charge of the rescue and are the only people doing the actual diving...
[quote="shananna" post=33782]
I've cried every day since hearing about it and feel sick to the stomach thinking about it. They're the same age as my kids, they could easily be our kids or grand kids in any other situation. Wrangling over who 'should' do stuff doesn't progress anything regardless of the circumstances. If I was in that situation, what I think I would appreciate most is knowing that whoever COULD DO something, did it, that I wasn't failed because of 'politics'!
[/quote]
I'm certain there is politics, but I don't believe it's affecting the actual rescue attempt. The international cave diving team are calling the shots, the Thai army divers are supporting them and they are all getting on with the job. There are no others, in the entire world, better qualified to do the extraction of the kids than those who are there and I am hopeful of a successful mission. However it goes, nobody else could ever do more than they are doing, we, as British cavers, should be immensely proud of them and the part they are playing. I for one will be buying them all a pint if I see them at Hidden Earth, or in my local...
I have been thinking about how to reply to Shan’s post for a good while and had not come up with a meaningful response (still haven’t).
I can see that, Tim and Les have both posted lengthy and detailed replies.
Thank you to you both â€" I was aware of some of the content but certainly not all and certainly not the depth of it. Very helpful stuff.
I sympathise greatly with Shan’s “feelingsâ€. I believe we all share in the horror that is unfolding in Thailand and we all feel we want to do something to help.
For most of us in the club, we will not have forgotten the event in Yorkshire a few years ago. At that time we debated making a donation to cave rescue. Most of us (all of us?) believed we should and, between, us, we escalated the donation sum right up to the point we had the pen poised on the cheque book for the “WHOLE AMOUNT†of our bank account. Something then stopped us and daylight dawned …. CRO didn’t need our (meagre) funds, they already had plenty of money. Instead, we elected to send them a crate of booze for their Christmas bash believing they would appreciate that more.
Later, when I joined CCC as Treasurer, I saw the “claims†coming in and none were made by any CRO in Wales. DaveT handled the grants they received but none of the CRO’s complained the funds were too little. In fact, it seemed they didn’t “need†the money at all. I do not believe that the Welsh CROs are in “need†of cash (I might be wrong).
What to do then?
Firstly, I didn’t know about the £25 per year other clubs make. I have not even heard of any such thing. Regardless of the Thailand incident, I would be in favour of the club matching the donation year on year. I do not believe we should cough up “back pay†because (in my eyes) it is an admission we have done something wrong â€" I don’t feel we have done anything wrong. I think the right time to do this is at the AGM (discuss, agree and pay (or not)).
Secondly, honorary members. I have no objection to this. I do have a number of thoughts though. The two honorary members we have were credited with the accolade either because of what they have done for the club or what they could do for the club. In both cases, history has proved both decisions to be extremely well merited. I am not certain that offering an honorary membership to the relevant cave divers is within the idiom of “honoraryâ€. I also wonder if any other clubs in the UK (or worldwide) might (or have) offered the same thing. Would the divers really value it? Or is it being offered to ease our own conscious? (probably the latter in my own case).
I don’t need to add any more to the discussion â€" both Tim and Les have added more than I ever could.
;)
Ian
Another four lads out, eight in total so hopefully all will end well
The start of this thread was something along the lines of 'there's trapped kids with people endangering their lives to rescue them, what if anything, may we like to do as a club to show some solidarity'.
There wasn't a huge response - Doug suggested something on social media, honorary membership was touted, and the only thing I could think of was Cave Rescue.
I then tried to summarise further replies in an effort to bring it all together - the points not necessarily being mine personally.
So, the short answers are that :-
* we contribute independently to whatever if we so feel inclined
* we match our peers and pay £25 annually to NWCRO - can that be sorted please Mr Treasurer if there are no objections?
* the BCA undertakes more activities than is known or appreciated by some of us, so that was really helpful.
We don't seem to actually know the details of NWCROs finances, which perhaps shows even more need for them to get on top of it to highlight what they need and why! That's already been brought up in their own meeting according to Sweetie.
It was never brought into question how much people contribute to our own club or any other related activities, and I think it is appreciated what people do. Having said that, the politics I was referring to was our own and not about the Thais (they've requested money isn't sent as it's doubtful it will reach the right places). The differing opinions, answers and reasons all expressed above.
Personally, a £25 club donation to the 'anything' seems a bit disappointing for what is recognisably a massive operation, however, I take it on board that that's my own issue and so I'll crack on as advised.
And just for info, there's been no reply from either of the countrys glorious main party leaders either!
http://www.caverescue.org.uk/
If you fancy donating. Also for accurate information
http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/rescue-updates-teenager-football-team-found-alive-cave/
Don't know how I've done this or if it works, but I thought it gives an interesting take on what's been happening. I think it's here that they mention the near misses of the 10 people searching the mountain who's vehicle fell of the road, and the people who were nearly electrocuted laying cables. There's also the farmers who's land and crops have been damaged - lots of longer term impact ...
Great that everyone is out safely, I didn't bet on that in a million years. What a job!
When the inevitable Hollywood movie comes along I hope they use the British cave divers as consultants do they get some world wide recognition for what they have achieved
[quote="mike leahy" post=33811]When the inevitable Hollywood movie comes along I hope they use the British cave divers as consultants do they get some world wide recognition for what they have achieved[/quote]
I agree. I hope the Americans don't try to take credit for the rescue when they make the movie!